A Different Take On Audience Building and Discovery in Podcasting

Seeing Is The New Listening

Last year at Podcast Movement, I presented some research comparing Rookies and Veterans in podcasting—those who had been listening to podcasts only in the last few months, and those who have been with the medium for three or more years. One of the cool findings from that study was the fact that Rookies were more likely to discover and consume podcasts through channels that many podcast veterans don’t really pay attention to, like Soundcloud and YouTube. After all, if it’s on YouTube, it isn’t really a podcast, is it? No—I agree. It’s a show, and the podcast is the RSS-delivered, downloadable version of that show.

Today, Edison Research put out our latest Top Ten Podcasts ranked by reach (the percentage of weekly podcast consumers who have listened to the show in the last week.) Once again, the top show is The Joe Rogan Experience, and yes, this newsletter is now three-for-three on JRE mentions. Insiders and casual observers alike will no doubt be unsurprised by this. But here is what I cannot emphasize enough: Joe Rogan is the number one podcast by reach, and number two isn’t close. In fact, if you look at our reach percentages by Men, the rest of the pack is well in Rogan’s rearview mirror.

It’s an open question if that reach will remain at this level when the show goes exclusively to Spotify—certainly in the short term, at least, you’d expect a dip. But I’d like to at least take a hand wave at an obvious question: why is the show so dang big? I’m going to spot you two of the top three answers: Rogan is a very talented interviewer, and I mean very. I have a high standard for this sort of thing, and his ability to sustain an interview for hours and make it riveting is uncommon, to say the least. Also (and as a result of that skill) he has shown a gift for tapping into the zeitgeist with the most timely guests on the most controversial topics. His show is watercooler talk in the way that Howard Stern’s show used to be when it was nationally syndicated on terrestrial radio. (For our younger readers, a “Water Cooler” was a device used to provide water for multiple employees in something called an “office,” where people would actually work in each other’s presence—sometimes three or more at a time. This was from The Time Before.)

Here’s the third reason, and it ties into the first paragraph of this newsletter: He is on YouTube. Now, when we measure reach in the Podcast Consumer Tracker, we ask weekly podcast listeners to write in the names of all the podcasts that they listened to in the past week, and we hand-code those shows to generate the correct name, publisher, and sales representation where appropriate. In the process, we check to make sure that each of the many thousands of podcasts named is actually available as podcasts, which means we exclude many YouTube-only shows. But Rogan is absolutely a podcast, so it gets counted.

People in the industry who buy and sell ads have an idea of how many downloads Rogan gets, though he does not participate in any of the various download charts out there. But they don’t know the half of it. YouTube’s part of the Joe Rogan reach story is enormous, and what’s more, YouTube’s importance as a “podcast” client is even more enormous, a fact unmeasured by podcast hosts and download-counters. In fact, two of the most important services for podcast consumption, and two of the fastest-growing services period, are YouTube and Spotify, which by definition do not actually count as podcast clients, but streaming services. And sure, it’s easy to get hung up on definitions about what is and isn’t a podcast, but my interest here is on your show, and I’m here to tell you that the most straightforward way to grow your show is to get it on YouTube.

Certainly in a YouTube show, you can talk about other ways to listen to your show, but in the end, who cares, as long as they listen? YouTube presents a number of advantages for your show that circumvent some of podcasting’s challenges. I’ve already talked about the size of the audience—and the fact that they are already there to listen to podcasts, so you might as well give them something to listen to! But YouTube also gives podcasters a pitchfork to brandish at one of their thorniest problems—discovery. YouTube’s algorithms do a very good job suggesting other videos you might like after you watch something—I can guarantee that, if you are reading this, you have gone down a YouTube rathole after watching how to cook a steak and ended up on that Turkish chef who makes Death Star-sized hamburgers.

YouTube is particularly effective for the discovery of audio content because I believe discovery is visual, not aural. I know that Spotify and Pandora, as well as some currently-in-development podcast apps, are all working on recommendation engines that will automatically feed you the next podcast you’d probably like. Maybe that works, maybe that doesn’t. I’m not convinced that podcasting is a lean-back activity like that in the way that music consumption is. I think it’s more intentional; more considered. And after I have just watched Joe Rogan stage a debate between a vegan and a carnivore on which is better for your health, I’ve got a much better chance of being recommended your nutrition podcast as one of a dozen or so related videos on YouTube than having it be the one show picked to play next in a string of audio files. We even have data on this from our Smart Audio Report research that we publish in conjunction with NPR—even though smart speakers are an audio-first platform, the overwhelming majority of those who own smart speakers equipped with screens say that those screens make content (and skill) discovery easier. In short, audio-only discovery is kinda like playing the game with only one hand.

This article may be a challenge for old-school podcasters, I grant. And yes, you’ve got to think about what your audio podcast will “look” like on YouTube. But I’m not trying to kill the podcast—far, far from it. As deals like Rogan’s are made to put podcast content behind walled gardens, some people may be pulled away from dedicated podcast clients, and thus, your show. I’m trying to equip you for a fair fight.

A Personal Note

That’s the end of the podcasting stuff. I wanted to share something else relevant to what this country has been going through, and how, at least, I am choosing to think about things. I write this from a high-rise apartment building in Boston that faces the Massachusetts State House, the epicenter of a number of ongoing protests about the death of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, and so many other Black lives that have suffered from violence and prejudice in this country. My building, and most of the buildings around us, are now completely boarded up, in many cases to cover smashed windows and even looted stores. I’ve watched our peaceful protests and refuse to allow myself to be distracted by the actions of a handful of bad actors who are merely taking advantage of a crowd to commit mayhem. The people kneeling at the steps of the State House aren’t breaking our windows.

And now we are all, rightfully, talking about race. If you talk about race on social media platforms, like Facebook, you can get sucked into some arguments about how protesters “should” or “shouldn’t” act. I have largely refused to debate on these terms. Not because I don’t enjoy debate—I’m a champion debater, believe me. But I struggle with, to use one of my wife Tamsen's great terms, what my “domain of authority” would be in such a debate. I don’t have years of tireless advocacy or activism. I’m listening more, talking less.

But I do have one humble contribution that does fit within my domain of authority. I used to teach Rhetoric at Penn State, and have passable critical thinking skills, so I’ve devised for myself a framework to enter into these conversations. Maybe it will help you.

First of all, here’s a construct you are very likely to encounter every day: “I’m all for [Black lives matter/Justice reform/economic mobility] BUT [the flag/violence/handouts], etc. They boil down to “I’m all for X but Y.” If Y exists, however, then you are logically not "all for X." In fact, Y is the stumbling block that keeps you from being any percentage for X. Y is the excuse you have given voice to that prevents movement towards X.

So how do we deal with Y? Here’s my simple framework. The next time someone engages you on some deliciously debatable stumbling block towards reform, from disrespecting the flag, to how Colin Kaepernick dresses, or to how hard it is to be a cop, stop and ask two questions instead:

1. Do you believe Black people need help right now?

It’s a pretty simple question. For some, the answer might just be “no.” How refreshing! Dispenses with the “but Y” arguments entirely and puts it on wax, to quote my spirit mage, Jalen Rose. But I think most people would say yes to question one. If so, here’s question two:

2. Does your argument/comment/viewpoint provide that help right now?

You might have to re-ask this one three times. That’s the magic number in qualitative research to get to the truth.

I don’t know if there is a right way or a wrong way to protest. I bet step two of Dr. King’s plan was not “wait 60 years,” so maybe alternate strategies are warranted. But my patience for the spicy hot takes about how the protestors or any of us are doing it wrong is pretty limited, because those arguments, no matter how righteous and attractive they seem, aren’t actually helping. I’m going to try to help.

What I’m Listening To: Last week’s episode of Code Switch is called “A Decade Of Watching Black People Die” and it’s a corker. Essential listening. Also: Doves (one of my all-time favorite bands) just put up a playlist of their complete works and I’ve been wearing out my Bluetooth battery all day on this.

What I’m Reading: I just started White Fragility and I should have read this a year ago. Better late than never.

What I’m Playing: Charterstone. After a day of Zoom calls, put yer damn screens away, people!

It’s been a good week for thoughtful reflection, thoughtful action, and empathy. I hope it’s been a good one for you, too. If you enjoyed this newsletter, please subscribe (below), forward it to a friend, and/or share this piece. I appreciate you.

Tom